I have so many things I am really trying to wean myself off of: a ridiculous sugar addiction, the mocking of those considerably smaller than me, always marching at the head of the big, gay rights parade...
I know I am far too often Nellie The One Note Fairy Princess but I look around me and I just don't get it. Mormons and Catholics are now officially banning together in their fight to "Defend Religious Freedom."
How is this about religious freedom??? I really want to know.
In his talk to 12,000 BYU students on Tuesday, Cardinal Francis George, president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, said “In recent years, Catholics and members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have stood more frequently side by side in the public square to defend human life and dignity." But whose human life and dignity are they defending? Their own. They are only interested in defending those that are like them - those that believe and live as they do. Really??? That's what Jesus Christ - the radical and unbelievably loving and accepting and compassionate being that you proclaim you follow - taught??? Really???
Gay Marriage and Religious Freedom are two completely separate issues but the more that religious leaders lump them together and rally and frighten their mobs, the less likely they are to actually think it through for themselves.
Gay marriage DOES NOT pose anymore of a threat to the world than freeing the slaves, allowing women to vote, allowing blacks the same rights as whites or interracial marriage did. All of those things were going to bring about the end of civilization and they did not. Nor will this.
I know that there are readers of this blog that do not support gay marriage -religious individuals that absolutely believe that their religious freedom is being threatened. PROVE IT. I mean that sincerely. I have yet to find one person who can give me a good argument besides "God says so." I am absolutely baffled by the religious freedom argument. If you believe that gay marriage threatens your religious freedom, I am sincerely begging you to explain to me how. Post anonymously so you won't be personally attacked. And, I don't want to hear "Because God says..." or "Gays are evil therefore..." I really want to know how your religious freedom is threatened by two men or two women getting married.
Cardinal George also said "But when Prop. 8 opponents respond by thuggery, by quasi-fascist tactics, then the common good, our whole society, stands in great jeopardy." Forget counting to ten. I could count to one million and still be furious about this statement. Gay individuals were going about their business of loving one another and picking out china patterns, without giving the second thought of a rats ass about the Mormon Church, when it swooped in and took away one of their basic human rights. What about taking away the separation of church and state and allowing religions to dictate who gets what rights? What does that do to the common good and safety of society? If a religion can rally and strip rights from a group of people once, what's to stop them from doing it again? Who will be next?
The Mormons crying victim, yet again, is outrageous to me. A bully has been beating up kids on the playground for years. Making the smaller ones feel sad, lonely and unworthy. It has been kicking them, throwing sand in their eyes, pulling their hair, calling them names, getting groups of other bullies to follow them. At long last, those that were being bullied stood up, kicked the bully back and said NO MORE. Now that bully is sitting in the Principal's office blubbering with snot running down it's shirt crying about the "thugs and fascists" that were mean to it?
Are you fucking kidding me???
[Deep breath. Happy thoughts. Count to infinity...]
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Related Links:
Guardian: Mormons And Catholics Join Forces
18 comments:
If I may...
Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg trials said, "...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Just substitute church for country, and there you have it.
When people start to question the Church's stance on Gay Marriage, they're going to realize they can question other things too...
The end result is that people leave, and with them they take back control of their own lives and their money...
Take control and money away from either church and you threaten the very existence of the organizations.
Fantastic bullying analogy, and overall a powerful post. One of my favorites and certainly I wait for anyone with enough courage to answer this challenge the way you've presented it. I wait, but I'm not holding my breath.
When those on the side of religion believe that being gay is a choice, a sinful one at that, I'm not sure that you can have a discussion, that you can have any tolerance, or understanding. Immediate logic is lost.
I blogged about this as well. This is the third article in the Mormon Times, in the last 10 days, that has warned the faithful that the gays and secularist are coming to deny them religious freedom. The gist of one of the articles was centered on the "we will loose our tax exempt status" hand wringing teeth gnashing argument.
One commentator on my facebook page used the old if men marry men then we will have to allow men to marry animals argument.
The fact is the claims about gay marriage are indefensible. Of course so are most claims made by religion.
Nicely done....
My brother always talks about how if we let the gay community pick up more and more rights, institutions like BYU could suffer... in BYU's case, it would be the loss of the "accredited university" status.
As to why? I don't really know.... something to do with not allowing same-sex couples to live together, or not allowing gay students to act on their feelings.
I agree with you, but am playing 'devil's advocate' (how appropriate!):
Is shunning a religious right?
Do I have the right to NOT voluntarily interact with others?
Does this right change whether or not I'm a buyer or seller of goods?
Does this right differ whether I'm "Open for business" or perform a private transaction?
Will I be forced (on penalty of fine or imprisonment) to conduct business with the spouse of a gay partner or with the gay relationship as a unit because of the passage of gay marriage?
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The above is the 'strongest' reasoning I have yet heard concerning gay marriage. IMO The solution, of course, is to get rid of government (I should end the sentence here) interference in the marketplace - allow private business to refuse service on whatever grounds they want.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
These guys make me so mad I could just scream!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!!
Are they SERIOUS???? Are the FUCKING SERIOUS?????
Yes, they ARE serious. I was LDS for 27 or so years, and during that time, I learned how to turn just about any type of criticism or logical argument into a persecution complex against me and my people.
That was not a very tolerant thing for me to say. Amendment 3 (Utah) and Prop 8 were not very tolerant either.
I'm trying to be more tolerant in my life toward Mormons. But DAMN IT!!! You guys (LDS) do not get it do you? It's not that complicated. Respect and tolerance go two ways.
I guess that they got away with voting away another group's civil rights. I don't know how that was allowed to happen because I don't think that some things should be up for a vote. Nevertheless, they got to vote on it.
They expressed their opinion. Gay people and their allys don't have to like them for it.
And I don't.
It's simple cause and effect.
I think the LDS church cares about PR more than just about anything. And this is going to be a PR nightmare for years to come
All the Mormom Church cares about is money and image (PR). This is about both.
Amen.
The argument my brother-in-law states is this: in allowing gay marriage, it will become taught as a 'normal' thing in schools and that takes away the freedom of PARENTS who want to teach their children hate, er, the right way to live.
Our kids will be taught that gay relationships are acceptable and that threatens their parents' ability to teach bigotry, er, VALUES to their children.
My response to my BiL? "In other words the government will no longer abide bigotry to be taught in our schools. Our government WILL do the right thing eventually. It is not a basic human right to be a bigot."
Isaythesethingsinthenameofjuicyfruitamen.
It appears that history has been forgotten again--the first edition of Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McKonkie states that the Roman Catholic Church is the "great and abominable church" referred to in scripture.
As humans, we are willing to build alliances when it suits us.............THE MEANS JUSTIFIES THE END!!!
The LDS church has always taught that although other churches (including the Catholic church) only have parts of the truth, and they (LDS) are the "ONLY TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH" that teaches the "FULLNESS OF THE GOSPEL".
Some Christians do not view Mormons as Christians and also teach that Mormons are deceived by the Devil and are a cult.
There is clearly a willingness to become allies and pool resources, as they are counting on the "power in numbers" as they (religious organizations/followers) rally together to "DEFEAT THE ENEMY".......which happens to be any of us who disagree!!!!
On my husbands side of the family, we have an aunt and uncle who attend a Methodist congregation in Seattle, that has a gay minister.......fortunately, not all Christians are bigots.......but sadly , most of our Mormon relatives are!
I agree, the gays having a lawful marriage has no infringement on my religious beliefs. I am LDS, for 15 years and would not change that decision. I am glad you recognize that the Catholic Church was also heavily involved opposing Gay marriage. Why not make a documentry on them also? Frankly, I don not care, it makes no impact on my life if gay marriages is legalized or not. Do not lump the entire LDS church. But I see why you would and that's cool, especially with the documentary. I personally have never heard or scene the LDS chruch snivel. But it's human nature. Let's not forget all the good and support the Chruch gives around the world, both LDS and non LDS. I also believe there are bigger issues for those for and against Gay marriage to focus on. I have always been encouraged to seek out my own decisions regardless of which way the Church stands on issues. For example my wife and I did not participate in any of the extra activies when it came to this proposition. Also, it would have passed in Ca regardless. If this kind of energy was used to solve homeless problems, drugs, etc...WOW, what an impact. The Church usually keeps a low profile so as one blogger said it is about PR and image, if that was the case you would know about the relief efforts around the world that no one ever hears about. Please look at people individually not as LDS or Catholic, Methodist, Gay, Strait, etc...Because you know one does not mean you know all. Thanks everyone. By the way I went to High School with Emily and respect her work and efforts even though I may not always agree.
Steve
Thanks Buck! xo
Steve:
I think your issue is with Reed Cowan and not Emily. Reed Cowan is one person who made a documentary based on his personal experience because being Mormon or ExMormon has some meaning for him. If a Catholic made a documentary about Catholic guilt or whatever, I'd be interested in seeing that too. I'm equally opposed to most organized religion. But as an exmormon, I'll talk about what I know personally.
Many different powers helped to fuel prop 8. But the Mormons used more resources than anybody else. "But all these other churches are doing it too!" Rest assured I don't support them either.
The LDS church does do good things too. But that doesn't excuse the terrible hurt and malice they are inflicting upon the gay community. I WILL call them to account.
I'm glad that you're not like all those other Mormons. I know a few Mormons who don't personally have a problem with gays. But they continue to pay their 10% and that's where the money used to fund these anti-gay efforts comes from.
I HAD to stop in 2004. That was the year of Utah's Amendment 3. I just couldn't be part of the problem anymore. I couldn't help fund the hate. Not when that money could have been used to feed the hungry or do so much good.
I still hate you.
Hey-what about the 11th Article of Faith? Is it to be believed and lived or has it been omitted and I just have not heard about it?
Not that my two cents matters in the grand scheme of things but can't we all just get along? Sing "Cumbaya" and hold hands around the campfire?
Yes, I'm LDS. Temple-going, even. But I'm a temple going LDS who believes in the crazy notion that Jesus loves *everyone*. I've also yet to meet a perfect person (LDS or not) so it's looking like none of us has the right to judge.
I mean, I'm not sayin' but I'm just sayin'...
Tice: Your two cents matters in MY grand scheme of things. I totally agree about us all getting along. But can we mix up "Cumbaya" with a little "Pour Some Sugar On Me" just for fun?
The guy that hates me... What a Dick.
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