Such great comments are being made on the No Crown For You post. Gay Marriage is a highly charged, very emotional, topic - for both sides. Any conversation between the For-bies and the Against-ers is going to be a walk on a mine field. Yes, we are all - including me - throwing out opinions and arguments that are often fueled by anger. Those of us that have actually taken sides feel passionate about where we stand and we all have our reasons for believing as we do. And we are not going to agree - we just aren't. I love that Melinda admitted to being on the fence - she is actually thinking about it and using her brain to decide. She is taking it seriously and not being swayed by either her religious leaders NOR her obnoxious and loud blogger friend. She will figure it out for herself - as we all are.
Can we on the Pro side "Hate the belief, but love the believer" the same way they "Hate the Sin, but love the sinner?" I don't know. Depends on the relationship. Some are strong enough, some not. Welcome to the battle.
Candis made a good point about the comment "I've never heard anyone on the liberal side trying to use any sort of religious argument to convince people to allow gay marriage" when she said, "Uh. . . really? Did you happen to read the last sentence of the blog post you're commenting on?" I did throw Jesus in the pot there, didn't I? Yeah, that was my dig in response to the many religious arguments being used against gay marriage. But there is no point in throwing the "Jesus Said" rocks at one another - again, we are NEVER going to agree. For those of us on the Pro side, this is not a religious issue. It is a human rights issue. Period. To those on the Against side it is not a human rights issue. It is a religious issue. Period.
There is a book that I have heard is amazing. I have purchased it but have not yet had the time to read it. It is called "Gay Marriage: Why It Is Good for Gays, Good for Straights, and Good for America" by Jonathan Rauch. It is supposed to be very logical and even handed. Anyone read it that would like to comment? If anyone would like to read it and comment I would be more than happy to post your review / thoughts.
You all know why this is such an emotional issue for me. And, while 99.9% of the Against arguments make absolutely no sense to me at all, I do understand why they make sense to others. The one I do not get is the Threat to the Family one. I simply, logically, do not understand how a gay couple getting to create their own legal family unit threatens anyone else's family unit. Please, someone help me understand that one. I don't want to hear "Churches will be forced..." "Schools will be forced..." arguments. How does it threaten other families??? Help me understand that one.
* Side Note: Yeah, even I'm getting tired of blogging about this issue. I need to go on a date with a hillbilly and mix things up a bit. Actually, that is the absolute last thing I need. Never mind.
10 comments:
DESTROY THE FAMILY ARGUMENT
In Canada we've had gay marriage for a few years now (July 2005). No families have been destroyed because of it. No families have not been allowed to form because of it. No teenage pre-married sex (gay or straight) has been prevented, or encouraged, because of it. No infidelity (gay or straight) has resulted from it.
Though, within the last year 4 happy lesbian couples have been married at our local United Church because of it. Because of legal gay marriage in Canada, 8 individual human beings who otherwise would have had to live as 'less-than citizens' are now afforded equal rights and equal treatment under the law as heteroxexuals.
So, what is the 'destroy the family' argument then? THERE IS NO ARGUMENT. I think it's just homophobic FEAR. There is no basis whatsoever for saying gay marriage will destroy heterosexual marriages or heterosexual families.
Much like the "there is a storm coming" ad in which there is no substance and only half-truths or outright lies, there is only FEAR (and not fact) associated with 'my family will be ruined by gay marriage' mindset.
SPICING THINGS UP
How about a Hillbilly Dwarf? Methinks THAT would really spice things up fer ya. :)
Ewww!
Okay I'll bite. First, yes, I think we can hate the belief but love the believer, because in our more "enlightened" state, we don't need another person to be or do certain things to be "okay," as religious folks do.
Second, why the "threat to the family?" I think it's that they don't believe there is such thing as "being gay." To them, gay sex is an abomination, sin, and totally unnatural for everybody. So to even give them any rights to be the way they are, or to expose their children to that lifestyle, might, well you know, tempt them to be sinful too?! And I guess if you get that kind of "gay conversion," they won't be having "normal" procreation, so that threatens the family?!
Okay nevermind. I don't understand either!
Luv ya!
~Rick
Who knows!
Why is there so much, "I wonder what they think" talk? Why don't you ask "them?" I promise you will get twenty different answers if you ask twenty different people. I don't know anyone who isn't somewhat torn about this. Let's take my 70 year-old mom. Raised a Methodist in the Northeast. Joined the Mormon church when she was 24. Never, ever has my mom made a derogatory remark about a gay person and yes, she's known a few. Currently, she can't say enough about how she just loves that Adam Lambert (current American Idol contestant.) "He's so handsome, seems like such a polite young man, lovely singing voice, etc." She knows he's gay. Doesn't care. But, if asked about gay marriage, she'd be more for Prop. 8 than against. That doesn't make her a bigot, or hater of gay people or stupid or un-enlightened or anything else. It's her religious belief. Until the pro-gay marriage side stops calling the anti-gay marriage side bigots, haters, idiots, b****s and c***s (thank you Perez Hilton) and starts having civil conversations, this issue will continue to brew. You can be mad. Be mad. I'm mad about a lot of things too, but calling people names is not, NOT helping the cause.
(Wow, Em, I've gotten quite chatty about this issue lately. Not that anybody cares what I think, but it feels good to vent. Thanks for your little forum here. And as you know, I'm from Arkansas, so I could hook you up with a Hilly-Billy if you change your mind...)
For Melinda,
I think I've addressed your comments before, but just in case you don't remember me, I was also married (still am, but separated 13+ years) to a gay man. I went from thinking gays are perverts (some 26 years ago) to now completely accepting him just as he is. So many times it always comes back to it isn't just about sex--it is about the whole person. Having been in a gay/straight marriage and now in a straight/straight relationship with the love of my life from 30 years ago AND now (and I just got home from a visit with him just hours ago)--I NOW know the difference between "it is more than the sex." Sure, a gay man can go through the motions of having sex with a woman. Thing is--a straight woman is going through the motions with a gay man. I didn't know the difference UNTIL . . . why would I deny that experience to anyone? IT ISN'T JUST ABOUT THE SEX. Their whole being is attracted to another person of the same gender--not just some perverted sex act. Having lived with a gay man and having been cheatedon extensively by him, people still say they are squeamish about gay sex--NOT I!
BUT--even if I had come to accept my "ex" completely (which is the best thing I ever did for him)--I still couldn't come to terms with the idea that maybe someday one of my children or grandchildren would come to me and tell me they are gay--THEN WHAT? My biggest fear for my ex was that he could never find happiness or love. That would be my biggest fear for my child.
I read something on postmormon about an active mormon man who found out he not only had one gay son, but TWO. He attended the oldest's wedding recently (before the election) and he said, 'All I want is for my children to find someone who will make them happy--that they may love and be loved--and I don't care what gender it is they fall in love with."
I HOPE that for my children and my children's children--and for your children--that when we find out one of them is gay--that the world will have changed enough that our children can live in peace and happiness--something my "ex" will never be able to do because society forced him into a closet and told him to hate himself just for being gay.
Lucy - EXCELLENT comment. And...
Who needs Arkansas? I think we dated a few hillbillies in our ward in LA.
As far as not being able to make sense of the other side's arguments, the quote at the top of your blog:
For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
Is almost true, sadly. But happily, I don't think it is completely true.
Yes, I am using my brain to figure this out, but for accuracy's sake I must say that I AM swayed by my religious leaders. I believe they are everything they claim to be.
But they don't make decisions for me. I agree with Brigham Young that "If its ok with the brethren, its ok with me" Is lazy and stupid and irresponsible. So I am learning, working (an--gasp--PRAYING) to figure it out for myself and part of that for me is taking ALL the other side's arguments into respectful and serious consideration.
Lucy, I couldn't agree more. I agree with whoever pointed out that 52% of Californians are not hateful bigots and I am also quite sure that telling them that they are is not the most winning strategy.
Blond guy,
THANK YOU for that website. It was like a drink of water. It was exactly what I have been looking for and I learned so much. A lot of that info has never made it up here to Wyoming, believe it or not. The book Emily mentioned sounds good too.
CL2. I have wondered about your story, I've picked up pieces of it from your comments. Thank you so much. CL2 indeed!
For anyone who is baffled about how anyone can be other than HORRIFIED at the human rights violation here... I have a mental exercise that might be fun, but that will requre some maturity and constraint.
Imagine me with tears in my eyes telling you that abortion is a horrible human rights violation. I mean, KILLING BABIES? Talk about something that is just plain WRONG. Ripping baby arms off?!
These are some of my real thoughts about abortion, but I have to be able to understand that not everyone sees it the way I do. And not everyone who doesn't burst into tears like I do when they think about our government supporting and subsidizing the killing of babies is a bloodthirsty killer.
Moral arguments are JUST PLAIN HARD. Positive, patient, grounded persuasion is much more successful than fighting or fit throwing (or bombing abortion clinics).
Anyway, I'm sure ya'll are bright enough to see that this isn't a discussion about abortion ( PLEASE don't do that) And I am bright enough to know that as passionately as I feel about abortion, it is a violation of someone else's rights, not my own, so it doesn't compare with your feelings about gay marriage for that and other reasons. It is just a mental exercise to comprehend how a good person can be less than appalled at a human rights violation that is, as the blond guy described prop 8 just plain WRONG.
Anyway, Emily I have always seen you as unique in the anti-Mormon community because of your amazing capacity and willingness to understand.
But yes, get your fishnets on and head to the NASCAR track and see what kind of comic blog relief turns up.
Melinda: "For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible" can be said by individuals in both camps - Mormon and Non/Ex Mormon and for gay marriage and against gay marriage. The trick is understanding and loving as respecting as much as possible while still disagreeing. I think we are saying the same-ish thing, no?
I do want to apologize for not being clearer about your belief in, and devotion to, your church leaders. Never want to disrespect that. I was writing more but it was turning into another blog about Melinda's testimony. While I still think you kick serious ass, it's not my place to bear your testimony. But, I am sorry I didn't clarify that.
Me in fishnets at NASCAR. Sweet! xoxo
Melinda,
I give you A LOT of credit for being open minded. Many are not. My story up until about 5 or 6 years ago is on wearewildflowers.blotspot.com
I am Colleen.
It took me about 20 years to make it from believing my ex was going to hell to where I am now. I also had a lot of issues to work through when he left the kids and I. I always had in my mind the idea of how far do we go--how many concessions do we make. I was as Mormon as they come (including giving up this love of my life 30 years ago for a temple marriage and RM--even some of the Mormon men I worked with at the time thought I was nuts as they saw the connection we had).
My ex lives here on my property in his motor home. He went with me to California with our 23-year-old son, my ex's last partner, and my ex's boyfriend prior to that (they are all friends now).
My daughter is very much a believing Mormon at this time (and thinks her dad should just quit having sex with men--but knows he can't change). She was actually the first one to come to terms with him being gay--not I. She was anti-mormon a few short years ago.
I, myself, most likely would have never come to this point in my beliefs or my life without experiencing what I have. Once you love someone gay--it changes everything. I mean REALLY LOVE someone gay. As I told my daughter, it takes a greater love to let someone go (as I loved and love my ex dearly) than it does to hold them hostage. I had to allow myself to see it from his point of view. I have witnessed his pain and his struggle. He gave it all and more. He wanted the "dream" the LDS church offered more than I did.
The freedom and peace I have over this issue now is overwhelming--no more confusion, no more trying to "save" him, no more trying to twist things in so many ways to try to make sense of it all. I went to the LDS leaders (including writing Packer and I got a direct response from him)--not only do they NOT have the answers--they had the wrong answers. They asked me to sacrifice my chastity to save my ex--which would just make this longer, so I won't go into it--but the things I went through because of the church and the gay issue have messed me, myself, up for life. I can't imagine being a gay in the LDS church.
The way I look at it now is that I saved my ex and he saved me. SOMEHOW we survived the storm. It took me having to LIVE IT to figure it out. MY HOPE is that nobody else ever has to live what we have--that they can figure it out without all this pain.
Em I agree with everything except the need to apologize. I just was clarifying for those who don't know me that I'm a true blue Mormon. YOu know I know you know....
CL2, thanks again. I'mma just let this all stew in my brain for a while.
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