Having been on both sides of the game, I have learned that there is just no point in playing with someone that has a full hand of "Because God Says So" cards. The player with the faith cards gets to be right every time - no matter how wrong they are.
I have been listening to Mormons, relatives and friends included, theorize and pontificate about homosexuality - with their bigoted and cruel judgements, loathing, fear and Christlike sensitivity of Nazi concentration camps - using BigSmartWords to make them sound like BigSmartSaints that know what they are talking about since I was a child. They have their say and the moment it is challenged, the card is pulled. Because God said so. End of discussion. There is, quite literally, no point in engaging.
I have never met Mr. B, blog commenter o' the day, but he seems to have a nice head of hair and, who knows, maybe he makes good pies. But, as I sat down and re-read all the comments made, as well as private emails sent to me, I remembered a cute little story I heard when I was in college. I had a friend who worked at an eating dis-orders clinic and one of the patients he worked with had been admitted to the hospital because her binging and purging had stopped being enough and she had begun baking and eating her own vomit. She would eat, throw up in a baking pan, bake it, eat it, throw it up, bake it, eat it, throw it up...
I just have one question for the frighteningly large number of religiously dis-ordered card pullers. Where exactly is the love that their God, their Jesus, their prophet and their scriptures say is the single most important commandment?
Because I see no love here. I see only vomit and I ain't taking another bite.
16 comments:
Yeah. What she said.
I hate it when people make Christians look bad by acting so incredibly un Christ-like.
Em, you are dark chocolate covered in pure gold. Somehow you cool the anger I have felt toward Mr. Bigot-low and his vomiting on your blog. You manage to make me see just how pathetically ridiculous it is to try and engage these people. You are so right, when they play that low-brow "God Card"-- you can only walk away from the table. It's like trying to talk rationally with an Islamic terrorist. It is simply not an option. Walk away. Thank you.
Nicely done Em!
Huh, that's all you got? I don't know that the "love" card trumps the "God says" card. And I never said love isn't part of the equation either, especially in that personal e-mail I sent you (which was mostly copied and pasted stuff I've said on other blogs, by the way).
What the debate boils down to, for me, is that none of us really understands the true nature of homosexuality, including how widely it varies among individuals. So many people on the pro-gay movement side are making sweeping assumptions that everybody is either straight or gay, and gays should just go for it.
So anyway, I'm sure not seeing any strong arguments here. I'm seeing more ad hominim attacks than anything, especially from Anonymous (and including on my own blog).
This will be interesting to watch our civilization curdle over this over the next few decades.
To me, the nature of homosexuality and how it varies between individuals and giving gays the right to marry are two competely different issues and conversations. But, if people view homosexuality as being evil and sinful then of course they are not going to support gay marriage.
And I agree, I didn't make strong arguements here (on purpose) and I'm not going to be baited into making any today.
For reasons I may share shortly, I am just not up for it.
That's cool, Emily. I hope the fireman hasn't disappointed you. Here's a little olive branch you and CLP will love:
http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/07/grandma's-final-preparations/
Emily,
I have been reading with interest and disgust (in the comments made). I've tried not to say anything because I don't like to be party to contention (which is of you-know-whom) :), especially when you're right, it seems so pointless. But may I just speak up for the many Mormons who are not just like Bro. B? Please?
I have spent serious energy and thought over this whole issue since the letter was read, and I was there to hear it because I am a faithful, active member of the Church, and have been so heavy-hearted over the attitudes of members like Bro. B. The love is definitely missing. I think so is the point of the letter, but I respectfully admit that we would have differing opinions on that.
I venture to say that Jesus Christ is much more tolerant than some of those who claim his name tend to behave. Much more loving. Much less shunning. Thank goodness THOSE kinds of Mormons aren't the gatekeepers to heaven, right? But not all of us are like that. Though I am an active member of the Church, my life has also been touched by homosexuality, and my heart has been broken by the pain and rejection that others have felt. I do not believe that Christ would be so demeaning and hateful. And many of us who try to be as He is are not either.
One word, if I may be so bold? I love your mother with all my heart. I've never met her, but her writings have been in my life since I was a young child and my mother kept her books on her shelves. I love her heart and her mission in this intolerant world. I only know tiny eensie fragments of your experience that have led you to be where you are now, and though I hold no judgment on your position, there is one thing that kind of stands out to me. (not that you care) If we are to really create tolerance and love, then it has to be for everyone, whether we find ourselves on their side of the fence or not. Though you have decided to leave the Church, I do wonder at the venom and cynicism that you seem to pass to your children about an entire group of people, who bring to them part of their heritage, at the same time you burn that group of people for being venomous to those you love. Does that make any sense at all? If there is to be love, it must be to all. I think Mormons as a whole are a great group of people, though I've lived among the Utah variety and Mormon hobbyists and dealt with other frustrations of those who miss the mark that the whole point is not to follow "rules" but to be like Christ in doing so! Anyway, doesn't it seem at all hypocritical to slam Mormons for slamming gays? As a mom I want my children to be open-minded and tolerant of ALL people, to respect everyone else's beliefs as much as they want their own to be respected. So if you think that Mormons have some superiority complex (which sometimes they misguidedly do), then is it right to leave the Church and begin a whole new superiority complex? That's where the love begins. And I hope I'm not being offensive in saying so. I do respect your life experience and the decisions you've made based upon them.
Anyway, I wanted you to know that an active member of the Church, who isn't perfect at all, but who loves the Church completely, will not demean or belittle homosexuals in the name of religion. And I do my best to speak up when others of my faith may speak out of ignorance or fear or judgment. For that's what it is.
"So many people on the pro-gay movement side are making sweeping assumptions that everybody is either straight or gay, and gays should just go for it."
That's not true. Most of us know that sexuality is not as simple as a black/white, either/or thing. Your repeated assertion about this suggests to me that you also haven't bothered to read much of Emily's blog, or you would have known that she knows this as well. Most thoughtful people know that sexuality is complicated. But your assertion that because it's complicated, it's therefore mutable, doesn't make much sense to me. Some things just are what they are, whether we like and approve of them or not.
Jenna:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for your insight. I completely agree with you. My venom towards the Mormon Church is no better than the Mormon Church's venom towards homosexuals. Hatred is never a good thing – regardless of whether or not the person feels justified in it. Including me. I will also be the first to acknowledge that I am still in the middle of a process with the church that is hugely unfinished. With all my heart I hope one day to move to a place of peace and love towards all things Mormon - for myself, my children and for those that I love. I’m just not there yet.
One tiny difference, I think, is that my anger towards the church is a result of the role it played in creating massive pain and confusion in my life. If a person has personally been deeply hurt by homosexuality (as I also have been) I could understand being venomous towards it (as I also was – for years and years.) My problem is with people that hate homosexuality simply because they have been told to - not because it has hurt or affected them in some way.
But, hatred is never a good place to settle and build a home – regardless of how justified it may be. Acknowledging anger, and working through it is necessary for healing but we all, myself as much as anyone, need to actively push through personal anger and pain to reach a point of forgiveness and love. Otherwise we stay sick and are nothing more than part of the ongoing problem.
Thank you so much for the feedback.
You are right Emily. None of us should engage Mr. Prick Bigot-low on this matter further. What he enjoys is debate-- or should I say his intellectual masturbation. The subject matter is really secondary for him.
One of the deepest needs (or addictions) within the heart of the pious religious zealot is the need to be right on every matter, in every conversation with every person. And akin that is the strange, perverse enjoyment of envoking the judgement of God when someone doesn't stay in line behind the wagon train.
You can't make a skin head change their mind about Jews and blacks. You won't make radical Muslims extremists change thier mind about Israel or the Great Satan- America. Nor will you get Mr. Bigot-low to ever see gays as anything other than sickening perverts and as the eventual cause of the fall of civilization.
He warrants no more of my precious time. What an ass hole.
Jenna, let me ask you some questions. How do you feel about those, who in the early days of the LDS church, preached that Mormonism was a perversion-- that it was immoral and that those who chose that lifestyle were not worthy of heaven or the same rights as other Americans?
Would you not speak out in anger and venom against such intolerance and judgement? Would you not think these people and their churches and groups to be cruel and preachers of hate? (Even though they might claim to 'love' YOU- just hate your lifestyle.)
What if in the midst of your anger and venom as you call for tolerance and speak out against cruelty toward the Mormons, you were told; "Jenna- if you want tolerance and love, then it has to be for everyone... even us anti-Mormons."
Would you just shut your mouth against their efforts and let them march over your rights as Americans? Would you be silent as they worked to pass legislation denying you property rights, the vote and to live your 'perverted' lifestyle with equal protection under the law?
Tell me Jenna, what would you do? Continue to speak out in defense of your rights--or be 'loving and tolerant' of such deeply wrong treatment of your lifestyle choice?
I'll tell you this--the early Saints did not take it sitting down. They did not remain silent or tolerant toward these efforts.
The persecuted become the persecutors.
Listen, "anonymous", I don't think I'm being hypocritical here. I DID just speak out against the intolerance demonstrated by the very church I believe in. I think I'm coming from a very healthy place here. Tolerance doesn't mean we all have to agree with each other, and respecting others' rights to live as they choose doesn't mean we all have to agree with each other either.
My own mother is a staunch anti-Mormon as are several of my eight siblings because of things that have happened in my family. I have a gay stepfather and a dear friend who left her husband to be with a woman. I know all of these people to be good and decent people who love me and I love them. And though I go to church every week and live as a Mormon (whatever that means), I have nothing but love and acceptance for those whose lifestyles differ from mine. My mother has venom against the Church, but she doesn't seem to feel the need to take it out on me because she can see that I live and love the way that I say I believe. She lives in San Fran and is a gay rights activist, and I love the people that I've met through her. I have my own personal beliefs about homosexuality and marriage, but those are MY beliefs, and what trumps everything is that I believe in letting everyone choose for themselves and believe and live as they want to. I think we can speak out to defend ourselves without bashing another group of people for what THEY believe, is all. I know Emily has been through a hell I don't completely understand. I think she understood the point I was trying to make, and I appreciated that.
In short, I don't think hate and venom EVER get us anywhere. I'm so sorry if anything I tried to express was offensive to you. I know that my ability with words isn't what I wish it could be and I fall short of being able to express what's in my heart sometimes.
Well said, Jenna. From just one of the many, many homos in the world (who just happens to be ex-mo as well). You are standing in the space of the beginnings of enlightened conversation...with an attempt at understanding. I would rather stand with you than with with 100 people that believe the exact same way I do, yet only speak from defensiveness and intolerance when preaching against the same.
Along those lines -- may God (the Universe, the Sages, the World, whatever you call “it”) bless Ms. Pearson for pivoting personal tragedy into a place for healing.
Uh, Jenna... do any of these anti-Mormon family/friends of yours belong to churches or other groups who are actively engaged in promoting national legislation to deny Mormons any rights as citizens of the United States? No.
I have no problem with people believing anything they wish. Religion may teach and preach whatever it likes and I would speak out against any effort to deny Mormons any right that I enjoy as an American. I may not agree with the doctrine or practices, but when it comes to equal protection under the law, I am on your side.
However, Jenna, you cannot claim to be loving and tolerant toward homosexuals yet be a devout, active member of a church that seeks to deny gays the right to marry. The two are completely at odds morally and philosophically.
It would be akin to holding membership in the Klu Klux Klan while speaking of love and tolerance toward blacks. It just doesn't jive. I'm not saying the LDS church is as horrible as the Klan- but you see my point.
As long as you remain a member of the Mormon church which is seeking to deny equal rights to gays via agressive grass-roots campaigning and political legislative lobbying- your loving words are hollow and hypocritical. You endorse this cruelty.
Your anti-Mormon family and I are not calling for the denial of rights from anyone. And we are not intolerant for speaking out against the unAmerican efforts to do so. You and your church are the intolerant ones as long as you seek second-class status for homosexuals.
Deny them membership in your church. Fine. Deny them heaven. Fine. Deny them full rights of liberty as Americans in the 21st century?
That's simply wrong.
And no amount of sugary, sweet words can cover up such unjust behavior in a free land.
Em - Good for you for taking the high road. I'm not quite as loving and willing to dish out a small critique, although I'm sure it will be seen as an ad hominem attack. Chris Bigelow often seems to be very open-minded, believe it or not, which is why I'm always shocked to hear some of his crazy statements, especially his utter confidence about his position on homosexuality. In his online persona, I find his unwillingness to engage in a real conversation about experiences and feelings, his pompousness, and his insistence on debating rather than seeking understanding more than offset his good qualities. For someone who aspires to edit Sunstone, he certainly doesn't demonstrate "faith seeking understanding."
Jenna - I think Anonymous must have missed the point of your post. You are a wonderful example of a faithful Mormon who is trying to be Christ-like, even online, and even while calling it as you see it. Even Emily saw that in your post, and she was the one being called out. Don't fret.
Hey Emily--just cl2 I still don't remember my identity!!!
This is a tough one and I have run into people like bigelow before. It only took me back to the dark place you talk about in another blog. I happened across some in February--I wrote you about them.
As for Jenna. I do understand where you are "coming from"--I "try" not to hate the LDS church, but I do. And I'm going to say here and now that I still hate the church and I'm not going to try not to. A lot of my family are members. My aunt just told me the other day to read my scriptures and I may come to a place of bonding with my very mormon daughter (who was anti just 2 years ago).
I haven't been through nearly what Emily has been through--but as long as the LDS church condones gays marrying straights (and they do--read Oaks interview from two years ago), then they are contributing to the destruction of marriages--such as Emily's and mine. They are contributing to the heartbreak of our children. Why would I give any kind of empathy to an abuser. I believed with all my heart and I sacrificed all I hold dear to "save a gay" and I did--just not the way the LDS church wanted me to.
Until you have been in our shoes, you cannot possibly understand what it means to give up your very identity, your very sexuality, your very femaleness to become an "it" because the LDS church says gays are perverts.
I saw my ex's pain, too. I am the ONLY one who has. My ex has finally risen to the occasion and he is a good dad again and we are best friends. He and I have been beyond hell and the LDS church hasn't changed its stance in the 25years since I found out he is gay. And my family members still preach to me about believing.
My own life experience led me out of the church--COMPLETELY. They lied to me AND MY CHILDREN and my EX. They used me as a lab rat.
I KNOW there are good people in the church as I know many. What I can't believe is that they are too blind to see what the LDS church did to US. By embracing the LDS church, you are embracing our abuser.
Post a Comment